Preview Mode Links will not work in preview mode

The A&P Professor Podcast
TAPP Radio

Content updates and teaching advice for teachers of human anatomy & physiology (A&P) from professor, author, and mentor Kevin Patton. 

Have a question, comment, or an idea for an episode you'd like to hear—or in which you would like to participate or help plan? Contact host Kevin Patton. Or call the podcast hotline at 1-833-LION-DEN (1-833-546-6336).

For more details on each episode—including transcripts—please visit The A&P Professor website.

Apr 12, 2023

Dr. Michelle Lazarus, author of the new book, The Uncertainty Effect: How to Survive and Thrive through the Unexpected, joins host Kevin Patton for a lively discussion of of uncertainty in science, medicine, and academia.

00:00 | Introduction

00:50 | Dr. Michelle Lazarus

04:57 | Sponsored by AAA

05:31 | Why Is Uncertainty Important?

17:05 | Sponsored by HAPI

17:49 | The Uncertainty of Teaching A&P

27:07 | Sponsored by HAPS

28:05 | Uncertainty and Inclusion

36:38 | Uncertainty and Risk

38:48 | Book: The Uncertainty Effect

39:51 | Staying Connected


★ If you cannot see or activate the audio player, go to:

🏅 Apply for your credential (badge/certificate) for listening to this episode:

⭐⭐⭐⭐ Please rate & review this podcast so that others can decide whether to give it a try:

❓ Please take the anonymous survey:

☝️ Questions & Feedback: 1-833-LION-DEN (1-833-546-6336)

✔️ Follow The A&P Professor on Twitter, Facebook, Blogger, Revue, Tumblr, or Instagram! @theAPprofessor

📰 Get the once-or-twice-weekly TAPP Science & Education Updates

I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong. (Richard Feynman)


Dr. Michelle Lazarus

4 minutes

Before we meet our guest, I explain why this episode is later than expected—and why everything these days is coming from me later than expected. Then I introduce our guest, Dr. Michelle Lazarus.

★ Michelle Lazarus (bio from Monash University)
★ The Uncertainty Effect: How to Survive and Thrive Through the Unexpected (book by Michelle Lazarus)

Some related columns by Michelle Lazarus

★ The inescapable truth of uncertainty (from Monash Lens)
★ Automation, uncertainty, and the Robodebt scheme (from Monash Lens)

Please rate & review The A&P Professor—it helps others decide whether to give us a try! 😁

The Uncertainty Effect with Michelle Lazarus | TAPP 135


Sponsored by AAA

31 seconds

A searchable transcript for this episode, as well as the captioned audiogram of this episode, are sponsored by the American Association for Anatomy (AAA) at

Searchable transcript

Captioned audiogram 

Don't forget—HAPS members get a deep discount on AAA membership!

AAA logo


Why Is Uncertainty Important?

11.5 minutes

In this segment, we learn how Michelle Lazarus first became involved in studying uncertainty. We explore the kind of uncertainty our students will encounter in their clinical experiences, as well as the kind of uncertainty we face as academics. And we learn why we should avoid introducing a lot of uncertainty on the first day of class.

★ Medical Student Experiences of Uncertainty Tolerance Moderators: A Longitudinal Qualitative Study (article in Frontiers in Medicine by Georgina Stephens, et al., mentioned in this segment)
★ Embracing the tension between vulnerability and credibility: ‘intellectual candour’ in health professions education (article from Medical Education)


Sponsored by HAPI Online Graduate Program

40 seconds

The Master of Science in Human Anatomy & Physiology Instruction—the MS-HAPI—is a graduate program for A&P teachers, especially for those who already have a graduate/professional degree. A combination of science courses (enough to qualify you to teach at the college level) and courses in contemporary instructional practice, this program helps you be your best in both on-campus and remote teaching. Kevin Patton is a faculty member in this program at Northeast College of Health Sciences. Check it out!

Logo of Northeast College of Health Sciences, Human Anatomy & Physiology Instruction


The Uncertainty of Teaching A&P

9.5 minutes

How does the uniformity we introduce to minimize uncertainty actually make things more uncertain for students? What's the difference between uncertainty tolerance and uncertainty intolerance? How can we help beginning A&P instructors with their uncertainty?


Sponsored by HAPS

55 seconds

The Human Anatomy & Physiology Society (HAPS) is a sponsor of this podcast.  You can help appreciate their support by clicking the link below and checking out the many resources and benefits found there. Watch for virtual town hall meetings and upcoming regional meetings!

Don't miss me at HAPS 23 Annual Conference in Albuquerque NM on the panel of Workshop B305 Editing A&P textbooks through a DEI lens: Authors' perspectives

Anatomy & Physiology Society

HAPS logo


Uncertainty and Inclusion

8.5 minutes

What is the relationship between uncertainty and having an inclusive environment in our course? Are we more ethnocentric or ethnorelative in our approach? How does that affect uncertainty tolerance? What about neurodiversity?

★ Developing Intercultural Sensitivity (book chapter from The Handbook of Intercultural training; expands on concepts of intercultural sensitivity spectrum discussed in this segment)
★ Uncertainty-Identity Theory (paper from Advances in Experimental Social Psychology)


Uncertainty and Risk

2 minutes

What is it about uncertainty that has surprised Dr. Lazarus? What's the difference between uncertainty and risk?


Book: The Uncertainty Effect

1 minute

★ The Uncertainty Effect: How to Survive and Thrive Through the Unexpected (book by Michelle Lazarus)

Book club listing

Book-club credential link



Guest: Dr. Michelle Lazarus

Production: Aileen Park (announcer),  Andrés Rodriguez (theme composer,  recording artist), team (transcription), Karen Turner (Executive Editor), Kevin Patton (writer, editor, producer, host)



If the hyperlinks here are not active, go to to find the episode page.

★ More details at the episode page:

★ Transcript available in the transcript box:

★ Need help accessing resources locked behind a paywall? Check out this advice from Episode 32 to get what you need!

Take The A&P Professor experience to the next level!

Earn cash by referring other A&P faculty to this podcast:

Tools & Resources

★ TAPP Science & Education Updates:

★ Amazon:

★ Text Expander:

★ (transcription):

★ Snagit & Camtasia:

★ JotForm (build forms for free):

★ Mobile Pixels (laptop monitor extender): t

★ QuillBot (writing tools):

★ The A&P Professor Logo Items:


★ Transcript and captions for this episode are supported by the American Association for Anatomy |

★ The Human Anatomy & Physiology Society provides marketing support for this podcast |

★ Distribution of this episode is supported by the Northeast College of Health Sciences online graduate program in Human Anatomy & Physiology Instruction (HAPI) |

Clicking on sponsor links helps let them know you appreciate their support of this podcast!

Follow The A&P Professor on  Twitter, Facebook, Mastodon, Reddit, TikTok,LinkedIn, Blogger, Revue, Tumblr, or Instagram @theAPprofessor

The A&P Professor® and Lion Den® are registered trademarks of Lion Den Inc. (Kevin Patton)

As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. I may be compensated for links to sponsors and certain other links.